birth time for Stephen Hawking?

[Barbara Ybarra]

Hello.

Anyone have a clue?  I have chosen a Gemini MC for a rectification I'm working on, but if anyone has knowledge of a good rectification, I'd appreciate the information.  I see one chart on-line that gives him Aries Point angles.  I can see why, but I don't really agree with it.

Thanks.

Barbara Ybarra

[Isaac Starkman]

Some years ago Noel posted a rectification for him for 10.00 BST and I fully agree with him. My rectification, using 32 events, is 10.08.30 BST Asc 4Aqu47'.
There is a grand trine with Mercury rising, Moon and Uranus, Jupiter and helio Mars conjunct IC.

[waterbird]

I admire Stephen Hawking very much. He was born on the 300th year Anniversary of the death of Galileo Galilei and had stated he feels very connected to him. Jan. 08, 1942 no time on ADB.

There are 6 retrograde Planets in his chart. Saturn,Uranus, Jupiter, Pluto, Chiron,Neptune.

water bird

[Barbara Ybarra]

Thank you so much Isaac.  I also considered the Sagittarius MH because of the scope of which he thinks about, but couldn't get that far with that chart for some reason.

 I see how perfectly it fits to have the Aquarius rising, with the solar arcs of the ASC and Pluto T-squaring his natal Uranus in 1963 when he was diagnosed with his motor-neural disorder.  Also the solar arc of Mars to Jupiter which rules his MH in 1985 when the emergency trachea operation occurred.  I "wanted" to see the Jupiter rule an angle.

My content with the Virgo rising was mostly so that tr Pluto could arrive there in 1963, and the solar arc Pluto square Uranus ruling the 6th.  Pluto would be co-ruler of his third house, house of motor-brain disorders.  But I also felt that his physical presence is so much stronger than the quiet Virgo, even as small and disabled as he is, and considered Scorpio rising as well.

Certainly the natal Saturn-Uranus pair sit nicely in the third house in the AQ ASC chart.  In the chart I drew for him, they are in the 9th.

Waterbird, I admire Stephen Hawking as well.   With the recent news that he finally has decided that there is no God, I wanted to see what in his life might have precipitated that conclusion.  He has always maintained that  the mystery of God is beyond what most people are thinking, that there was no literal "creation" by a personal God  (which I personally agree with).  With Mercury in that earth grand trine he depends on concrete answers.  But his mind is also creative.  His Moon in that grand trine is close (read that as present in an emotional relationship) with Neptune,…how could the man not be a closet mystic as well.?   It must have been sad for him, after all these years, to come out and say that there is no afterlife; that heaven is a fairy-tale concocted for those afraid of the dark.  I am wondering if he just got tired of thinking about it and gave up.     

Barbara Ybarra

[waterbird]

Barbara,

I always admire good minds and Stephen Hawking certainly has a wonderful mind, great capacity and reasoning ability. We live in a time when we can think and believe what we choose and if Stephen doesn't believe there is a God, then so be it.His 6 retrograde Planets must have given him good reasons to look into everything and not take anything for granted or leave no stone unturned!

It would be wonderful to get a birth time for him - and we can believe we will eventually!

water bird.

[james m]

hawking doesn't believe in astrology either.. brilliant minds are also capable of having opinions on topics they know nothing about.. mercury/jupiter 135 is a part of this astrologically....

"``When it was discovered that the Earth was not the center of the universe, astrology became impossible,'' said Hawking, delivering a lecture through voice synthesizer to a standing-room-only crowd of thousands.

``The reason most scientists don't believe in astrology is because it is not consistent with our theories that have been tested by experiment,'' Hawking said to a rapt and quiet crowd that had waited for an hour in lines winding around the block to see and hear him."

 

[james m]

some might find it astrologically informative to look at his first mathematics teachers chart as hawking claims he was the first teacher to really inspire him.. 
"From the age of eleven, he attended St Albans School, where he was a good, but not exceptional, student.[11] When asked later to name a teacher who had inspired him, Hawking named his mathematics teacher Dikran Tahta." from wikipedia.

dikran tahta birthdata is aug 7 1928 manchester, uk. the 2 cross aspects that captured my attention were - dt's saturn - focal planet to his chart - exact opp hawking's jupiter and dt's pluto exact opp hawking's sun.. these are both very exact aspects - within a degree, in spite of the fact we don't have an exact time for hawking or dt...

[rj_smith]

Barbara:

Thanks for the post on this amazing man...Whenever I hear Hawking speak, I can see the Aquarius rising coming at me, somehow... He is not your average scientist, for sure, and he seems brave enough to make socially unacceptable comments to the media.  

Stephen Hawking is someone that I consider a true hero...in a world where such persons are becoming increasingly harder to find...

As far as Hawking and Astrology goes, imagine if Hawking publicly endorsed astrology... There would be choas and dissention within the scientific world...and his own popularity would be diminished.

Of course, Hawking would never endorse astrology !

That said, if Hawking were ever to come in contact with a genuinely world class astrologer, perhaps instead of argument, we could sit down with him and educate him about the facts and then, we can leave him alone, and let him make up his own mind ?

You don't have to 'conquer' or insult people in one meeting, in my opinion. Diplomacy through education is a game of patience and tact, in fact !

This dialogue might even have to take place over several coffees, (or, several YEARS of coffees?) but eventually, progress MAY take place...

Look at the Isreal and Palestinian conflict...it's much like the scientists and astrologers predicament...

How many Presidents, now, have tried to 'fix' the puzzle to no avail ?

It may never be solvable, actually...Should we give up, though ? No !

Hawking, (the 'grand triner') also has a dual nature, in that he also follows the 'sheep,' (or the crowd?) as in, the more sheep I hang with, the safer I will be...and the less chance than an astrologer (disguised as a wolf) would be able to pick one of the sheep off, or financially disrupt my career in science ?

The sad reality is, much of the world's academia wallows in this GRAND TRINE comfort zone of regular salary and eventually, pension, = shut my mouth and resist rocking the boat and thus, following the crowd...

From one 'grand triner' to another, the grand trine is not necesarily about 'defensiveness' as much as it is about comfort, luxury, and ease of use...

Incidentally, the Hawking natal grand trine is about the intellectual steel pinball, after thousands of travels, etching a path along a column of wood, so that the ball understands where to go or travel, effortlessly, and intuitively, without resistance or outside obstruction.

The so-called reputation for 'defensiveness' is way too sensationalized or overdramatized, in my view. The Grand Trine is NOT necesarily a defensive natal structure, but rather, it's more built for 'comfort' and sustainability.

I think that, when we think of pure defensiveness, we MUST look to SATURN's role in the natal chart...specifically...

You can also say that the natal grand-trine is about survival and protection of self and, there is a selfishness about it ?

Perhaps one of Stephen Hawking's most brilliant deductions (or pieces of advice for us?) is the idea that humankind may be on the verge of extinction. So therefore, let's colonize other planets, now, and build self-sustaining eco-systems and breathing systems, to insure our future survival, in case that the Earth DOES blow itself up or destroys the atmosphere to the point of a self-inflicted, gaping holed, gun shot wound...




R.J. Smith





 

[waterbird]

R.J,

Follow the sheep is not for me! I'd rather be a giraffe where I can see over and above everyone.

{You don't have to 'conquer' or insult people in one meeting, in my opinion. Diplomacy through education is a game of patience and tact, in fact !This dialogue might even have to take place over several coffees, (or, several YEARS of coffees?) but eventually, progress MAY take place...}

Having just read 'Three Cups of Tea'  and my many cups of tea later I think we could learn a thing or too about being patient and waiting for change in our World whatever it might be. The extremely poor Pakistani families in the icy cold mountainous areas had waited for schools to be built to educate their girls - educate a girl and you educate a family - and another year of waiting would not matter! Maybe the book isn't totally truthful but I got so much from it and I wont forget it!

water bird

[rj_smith]

R.J,

Follow the sheep is not for me! I'd rather be a giraffe where I can see over and above everyone.

{You don't have to 'conquer' or insult people in one meeting, in my opinion. Diplomacy through education is a game of patience and tact, in fact !This dialogue might even have to take place over several coffees, (or, several YEARS of coffees?) but eventually, progress MAY take place...}

Having just read 'Three Cups of Tea'  and my many cups of tea later I think we could learn a thing or too about being patient and waiting for change in our World whatever it might be. The extremely poor Pakistani families in the icy cold mountainous areas had waited for schools to be built to educate their girls - educate a girl and you educate a family - and another year of waiting would not matter! Maybe the book isn't totally truthful but I got so much from it and I wont forget it!

water bird

Hi there, Waterbird:

Thanks for your post. My point was that we have to be tolerant of divergent opinions and views and if Stephen Hawking happens to be opposed to astrology or "doesn't believe in it", no panic...

But, I wonder, are we essentially wasting our time trying to get Hawking on 'our' side ? Does it even matter that science endorses western astrology.

On that note, I think that negotiation and tact should be saved only for the most worthiest of causes...


R.J.

[Barbara Ybarra]

Hi.

I like waterbirds answer about Stephen Hawking wanting to leave no stone unturned.  Or maybe he has just been too busy with other things.

R.J., I'm not sure I remember hearing that the grand trine was about defensiveness.  I was so sick of hearing the praises of the grand trine until I got into Noel's course and heard the idea that the grand trine was a circuit of self-sufficiency, particularly geared to its element, and that its downfall was the reluctance to turn to others for help or advice, thereby creating alienation and the possiblility of suffering from loneliness.  It made such perfect sense to me, and I found that every person who had a grand trine that I had a session with would nod their heads profusely when I broached that subject.  It was like they were saying "oh, finally, somebody sees that, now what do I do about it?"

I do like very much what you said, R.J., about being in the pack.  A nice grand trine, although self-sufficient, still needs a general support system.  The "club" is more remote from any individual..…there will always be like-minded others out there.  There's never any need for indebtedness.  The "I can do it myself" approach is not challenged because we all build our knowledge on the ever-growing pool of it.
   
Barbara Ybarra

[rj_smith]

R.J., I'm not sure I remember hearing that the grand trine was about defensiveness.

Hello Barbara, good afternoon...


Well, my fine-feathered friend, Mr. Fearrington, has a video on You Tube about the Grand Trine, (which I have just reviewed) and he apparently insists on a connection between the Grand Trine and 'defensiveness'.

(Which I disagree with, of course....)  

Anyhow, watch the video and then, you be the judge !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SYqx5Gc03k

However, I have since learned that you are not exactly a 'fan' of Basil's !

Nudge nudge, wink wink ! LOL

For the record, I have actually spoken with Basil over the telephone (a few years ago) and he comes across as a  decent chap and a very good astrologer, as well...  

Anyhow, as the 'owner' of two natal Grand trines, myself, ie one in air signs, the other in fire/earth signs and as one who comes from a FAMILY of grand trine owners (ie grandfather, father, myself and my daughter!) who would be more 'up to speed' on this aspect than 'me' ! LOL

In order to better understand the natal grand trine, first, we must disassemble the grand trine into its components?

The TRINE (either 120 degrees away, or a 240 degrees away) is essentially a THIRD HARMONIC aspect, as it is one-third the size of a circle. Hence, 1/3, 2/3, and 3/3. Therefore, the symbolism between the trine and the number three is mathematically undeniable.

In mostly every civilization on Earth, the number three has been previously described as the most esteemed of the primary numbers. In European and Anglo-Saxon culture, 3 is associated with the Trinity, or 'Father, Son, and Holy Ghost..."

The Bible says that THREE wise men (astrologers?) came to visit baby Jesus...

Things happen in 'three's,' according to superstition...which is deeply entrenched in many, many Western and Eastern cultures...

On the THIRD DAY, he rose again (Jesus) (from the tomb) and ascended into heaven....

The Roman's spoke of the triumvirate, refering to THREE men holding political power.

In Far Eastern culture, the Chinese trigram or scripting for THREE and KING is the same !

That symbolism for 'Three' is thousands of years old and is steeped in historical importance throughout all of the Chinese, Japanese and Korean dynasties...

In the Sikh (East Indian) religion, everything stems around the three 'K's'

Therefore, astrologers of ancient times, going back to perhaps Claudius Ptolomy, jumped on this religious/metaphysical bandwagon and defined the TRINE as some sort of natal 'super' aspect...promising good fortune, wealth, personal fame and other goodies...

The 120 aspect (or four signs away) extends from the 1st house to the 5th or 9th house. However, the 5th or 9th house symbology doesn't always manifest...Generally, the natal GRAND TRINE is an aspect of:

POSITIVE:

- independance, self-sufficiency, freedom of movement.
- ease of use, good fortune, or luck.
- protection from dark or negative forces
- complimentary or synergistic energies at work.
- opportunities for self-expression and comfort of use.
- expectation of reward through the houses it rules.
- nurturing and protective in nature.

CHALLENGES:


- laziness, love of indolence?
- habit-forming, not all of them GOOD !
- stubborn or unadaptable.
- love of material comfort and ease.
- nothing happens (good or bad?) since you wait too long for opportunities and conditions.
- overdeveloped sense of entitlement - ie the world owes me a living ?
- confusing friendship with ownership, controlling, manipulative, cunning !
- being in a personal rut or slough of despondancy, AND, too stubborn to admit it !
- promotes energies that could be either good or harmful, promoting sickness or demise. for example, during death charts, Jupiter is often found, by transit/progression. in trine aspect to the rest of the natal chart !



In my mind, the natal grand trine has a very STRIKING symbology or similarity to the I.T.F. Taekwon-Do pattern, Juche  In his landmark encyclopedia, Taekwon-Do the Korean art of Self-Defence, General Choi Hong Hi (the founder of Taekwon-Do) writes:

" Juche is a philosophical idea that man is the master of everything and decides everything. In other words, the idea that man is the master of the world and his own destiny. It is said that this idea was rooted in Baekdu Mountain which symbolizes the spirit of the Korean people. The diagram represents Baekdu mountain. "
 
Therefore, after much thought on this subject, I would think that the key word(s) or phrase when interpreting the natal Grand Trine is FREEDOM,  INDEPENDANCE...and SELF-SUFFICIENCY.

Hence, the AIR grand trine owner wants intellectual freedom of thought and expression and 100 percent control over one's mind and faculties...There is often noted genius, eloquentism, and facility of mental expression..

Regarding the receiving of advice, it's not that they 'refuse,' arbitrarily, anyone's advice, but rather, it's just that your advice generally SUCKS or that, OUR advice is better than yours ! LOL Therefore, the air grand trine holder rationalizes, why have hamburger, when you can dine on STEAK ! LOL

There are, of course, pitfalls for the air grand-trine holder.  The pitfalls are: wasted opportunities for personal intellectual and communications growth, through a know-it all attitude, being too welded to past ideas or foolish ideologies, or simply being too arrogant and unadaptable or resistant to change...

The FIRE grand trine holder wants freedom of movement and immediate results...  ! They hate being confined, restricted, or censored and for them, the ends justify the means...SPEED and action is critical for these people... Passion and enthusiasm for life are the keywords! There is also a sense of blindness and rightiousness about the FIRE grand-triner, though, and they make excellent fighters and advocates...

However, they also have a blundering nature to them and can make serious mental errors in judgement...ie the brain can be 'dumber' than the body... They are physically very strong and tough people and can take punishment where no others could... Many professional athletes have grand trines in fire, former baseball legend Pete Rose is my favorite...

The EARTH grand triners expect financial and material self-sufficiency and thus, dependance on others is avoided at all costs...These people can be possessive and manipulative and often confuse friendship with ownership. A good example of this is Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper, who according to pundits, is the Prime Minister with the least amount of political patronage debts and 'I owe you's'  in modern history.  Part of it is that Harper is a very independant person who rose through the political ranks mostly on his own persistence and with his own money and contacts.  

Stephen Hawking also has this aspect and it's interesting to note that perhaps Hawking admits (through shunning astrology) that being economically sufficient is also the key to being a 'good little scientist' and academic ? Hence his income from public speaking engagements are at serious risk if he endorses the astrology card.

Maybe that is why he shuns western astrology, altogether !

Ex-Beatle John Lennon also had a grand trine in earth signs and the reason he meddled at all in the peace movement (and other political movements) was perhaps at his wife's (Yoko Ono's) insistence and maybe not him, alone...

Otherwise, maybe he was like many earth grand triners that we know of? ie they don't care about much except their own selfish financial/personal agenda ? Certainly, Yoko Ono later became a very shrewd manager of money (and a very wealthy women) in her own right by learning from her former husband ?

Finally, the WATER GRAND TRINERS.. they say, the 'loneliest of the lonely' or... crafty ACTORS ?...being melodramatic and crying maudlin about everything... They love to whine and complain, since with the grand trine, they have this distorted sense of entitlement and expectation... Easily hurt with a haughty ego, they are like the crab that dissappears into the shell when injured, only to remerge later as if nothing haopened.  They can be secretive and emotionally distant and don't always to share what is going on.... They tend not to trust others, easily, but in fact, they are usually overcompensating for some loss or lack...I've noticed that they can have a difficult time reconciling their past...As astrologers, we have to find out, gently, what that is and try to help them, if possible...

A very good example of a water grand trine politician is newly elected British Columbia Premier Christy Clark. Noel gives another great example in actor Tom Cruise, in one of his books...

The best approach to handling grand-trine people, in general, is to have patience and wit and to cast out the fishing line and wait until they finally 'bite' ?  Forcing issues on a natal grand-trine person is not likely to work !



best regards,



R.J. Smith









  

[Barbara Ybarra]

Hi R.J.:


I'm sure I would like Basil as a person and an astrologer.  It was nothing personal about him, I was just commenting on his book.  I liked his u-tube post.

 Defensiveness is an outcome, I suppose, of the grand-trine, but I don't think it occurs with every person;  I think the tendency to experience isolation does occur in every case, though, and if it's not being experienced then the person has worked on not being isolated.

It's not that I don't appreciate the beauty of a grand-trine.  I thought for years that if only my mother had waited a few more hours to give birth to me, I would have a lovely, powerful, fire grand-trine.  But seeing how many problems I already have with righteousness and everyday forgiveness in a relationship…I probably don't need more of that stuff.

Looking at the grand-trine in a new light, after the light-bulb went off from what Noel was saying, was not just a way to say "oh, that's sour grapes, anyway".  It was a way to be an awesome astrologer, to offer something meaningful to others.  I don't think people go to an astrologer to be told over and over again "Oh, awesome, look at that grand-trine, you are so talented and fortunate, etc."  They already know that, but they also know it means something else in their relationships.

We all need others to validate ourselves, to confirm who we are, to be a witness in our lives.  If we have suggested to everyone around us that we need no witnesses because we are a law onto ourselves, it gets pretty lonely out there.

I find it interesting that Stephen Hawking with his earth grand-trine is very dependent on the kindness of others.  He certainly can pay for it, but at what point must he have realized that it was not something he wanted solely to pay for, that at least some of it must come from the heart?

Barbara Ybarra
 





 

[rj_smith]

Hawking has Natal Moon in Virgo and also, in the Virgoan 6th house.

Empathy towards humans is not always the Moon in Virgo man's strong suit.

However, with natal Moon conjunct his Neptune, there is sometimes empathy, nonetheless. Also, being in a wheel chair, you learn to appreciate the goodness of others...Sometimes !

I happen to be very good friends with a quadraplelegic Sun in Leo man who also happens to have Moon in Virgo and he can be a mean-spririted and even cruel person to others ! He is a professional Chartered accountant by profession...

However, he is also a recovering alcoholic and he occasionally suffers from 'drydrunk' syndrome...

Empathy is always there, however. IF you take the time and trouble to find it in the bottom of your soul !

Regarding the stereotyping of the grand trine as a force for extreme 'good luck' or personal wealth, that is about as muddled in thinking as stereotyping the square aspect as promoting bad luck and misfortune...

I wonder who still teaches these stereotypes ?


R.J.

[waterbird]

R.J,Barbara,

If I push things a little I have an Earth Grand Trine. What this means to me is I'm sensible with money, will never go broke due to my own overspending or mis-management, and I will always have enough for my needs plus and will never owe money!

I'm not 'isolated' and after moving North I had to find and make the contacts to new friends, groups of people and interests. It was 95% me and only 5% others. No one comes along and knocks on your door,well not often.

Their are many interests one can do alone. Reading, photography, movies etc. can stimulate the mind and 'keep one company' for hours on end.

water bird