Plutonic Obsession

[Old Guy in Astrology]

Recently I had one of my clients indicate that she read on the internet about Plutonic Obsession.  She wanted to know if this was a real topic or whether it was just some person trying to make a name for him or herself.  I looked at the You Tube video and it was a pretty young woman, so maybe...

Anyway it involves obsession between two people where one of them has Pluto and the other has an inner planet and they Pluto and the inner planet aspect strongly in a synastric chart. 

The discussion doesn't highlight any charts.  So I connected two charts of people who were so obsessed with each other that they actually got married twice.  One set was Donnie Johnson and Melanie Griffith. 

I could not find a Plutonic Obsession in either of them. 

Anyone here have any thoughts about this?

[amymaddalozzo]

Eric Clapton really was obsessed with his first wife Pattie when she was married to George Harrison but that obsession seemed to have died when Eric married Pattie.  Eric has natal venus in Taurus square natal pluto--some people are prone to these obsessions.  AMY

[Old Guy in Astrology]

Amy,

As I understand it, Plutonic Obsession is not something that exists in your own chart but something that shows up in the synastry between charts.

OGIA

[Antonio]

OGIA,

Astro.com displays Melanie's picture with my name tattooed on her right arm. I had to say something about it! Certainly a new case of obsession for needles and pain!

As for her former/past(?) obsession, I found, at least, the following:

[jon layton]

I think Don Johnson and Melanie Griffith are a good example of "Plutonic obsession" and it's seen clearly through their synastry interaspects namely her Sun at 17 Leo within a degree of his Pluto and her Pluto-Mars conjunction square his Midheaven.

I found this quote on her ADB page revealing "When I was about 25, I made this conscious decision to be good in my work and to believe in myself. And I couldn't do that in my personal life. I always put men on a pedestal (Sun in Leo), probably because my parents divorced when I was really little."

She started "dating" Johnson when he was 22 and she was 14 so about the time of the Sun's arc to Pluto(-Mars) beginning the "Plutonic obsession". At the root (4th house) of the obsession in her own words is her absent(Saturn Rx) but idolized (Leo) father. Perhaps Johnson with his Pluto conjunct her Sun acted as a Plutonic catalyst bringing those early wounds to the surface ideally to be healed.

They first got married in January 1976 and divorced 6 months later in July  about the time of SA Pluto conjunct Venus in Griffith's horoscope so were definitely spying a Plutonic theme playing out through their relationship.

Noel writes in "Astrology of Intimacy, Sexuality & Relationship" page 53 "With Pluto involved there is usually a strong competition for power in terms of the person recieving the Plutonic onslaught - or there is empowerment offered in assistance."

In my experience Pluto seems to give special insight into the other person's wounds/vulnerability which can then be used for exploitation,(control, manipulation) or empowerment (healing). At least at the beginning of their journey together they both probably experienced the more negative side of Pluto but hopefully it ultimately led to empowerment.

I was reading on her IMDb page that a possible reason for their first divorce was that her early career outshone his. There's the competition (power struggle, jealousy) dynamic that Noel talks about in his book

I do think "Plutonic obsession" is a very real phenomenon but I think we need to dig deeper to find out what is at the root of it. One way to look at synastry is that the other person is a permanent transit to our horoscope. If were intimately involved with someone who's Pluto is conjunct our Sun we can expect that deep seated issues will rise to the surface for empowerment or exploitation.

Jon

[amymaddalozzo]

Well ,if what you guys say is true, my late husband and I had a plutonic obsession but I do not consider it negative because we were very compatible.  His pluto and north node were conjunct my natal venus and square my mars.   When we met, my solar arc pluto was square my ascendant, solar arc sun was conjunct natal mercury, which rules my 7th house.  Transiting pluto was starting to square my husband's venus, which ruled his 7th house and solar arc venus was just separating from  a conjunction with natal sun.  AMY

[Old Guy in Astrology]

This is really wonderful.  I was apparently limiting my perception of the obsession to the romantic friends 11th, romance 5th, or partnership 7th houses.  Knowing that the Griffith/Johnson relationship started when Melanie was 14 puts a whole new perspective on the obsession, and then the 4th house as a site for the obsession makes real sense.

I can always expect someone here to bring some obvious perspective when something really really obvious escapes me.  Thanks everyone, especially Jon. 

Interestingly, her Klotho(the asteroid of beginnings) inconjuncts his Pluto.  This brings a compulsive spice to the Pluto/Sun conjunction(SORRY DON), and the fact that its an inconjunct meaning that issues  tend to come from behind, in a totally unexpected way, which is what obsession tends to do, is another point.

But having missed the connection by limiting myself to strictly romantic relationship houses, I wonder if I could find the charts of well know brother/brother/  or brother/sister, or sister/sister teams who were obsessed with each other in a taboo 3rd  or 12th house way?  Unfortunately astrodatabank hasn't been helpful so far. 

[Old Guy in Astrology]

QUITE AWHILE AGO(2001), one of Noel Master student grads, Ricki Reeves wrote a book on the psycho-dynamics of obsession, entitled THE QUINDECILE:  The Astrology and Psychology of obsession.  Amy and Antonio were here then and should remember her. 

Of course I have a copy, but I forgot about it until just now.  I contacted her, though I'm not sure that my email was right, but perhaps she'll come back and bring her considerable knowledge to this discussion.  Her email bounced and there is no reference to a website for her on Google.  I hope she didn't die.  Maybe Noel Tyl knows how to reach her. 

On page 121 of her book, speaking about the Richard Burton/Elizabeth Taylor synastry(which has inaccurate birth times) she states:  "When looking at these two horoscopes through synastry, we find that Elizabeth's PLUTO in Cancer is quindecile Richard's Venus in Capricorn.  Pluto and Venus together in a quindecile aspect is a powerful combination because of the enormous need it focuses on the power of the relationship."

[Old Guy in Astrology]

In the paper entitled THE FIRST 32 HARMONICS:  A Qualitative Research Study by David Cochran,

he states on page 10:

" 24th Harmonic

24th Harmonic: The 5/24 aspect is a hybrid of the square and
sextile aspect, the 7/24 aspect is a hybrid of the square and
trine aspect, and the 11/24 aspect indicates an unrelenting
headstrong determination, with disruption and upheaval.
(Godefrey).

"The 24th harmonic indicates resources available
to the person. The person is motivated to develop these
resources but not with the intensity of the hard aspects. The
meaning of hte 24th harmonic aspects is strongly influenced
by the numerator, and the 5/24 aspect is more subtle and
creative than the 11/24 aspect which is intensely motivating.
The 7/24 aspect is a bit constrained, introverted, and focused
(Cochrane). The 11/24 aspect indicates a tendency towards
being obsessive-compulsive (Ricki Reeves, Noel Tyl). "

[jon layton]

 
Old Guy, the brother-sister combo who immediately comes to my mind is James Haven and Angelina Jolie. They at the very least seem to like to flirt with the taboo. His Sun is tightly sesquiquadrate her 3rd house Pluto. I think it's important to not overlook the semisquare and sesquisquare aspects, keeping the orbs tight (perhaps within 1.5 degrees in synastry).

Amy, yes in my experience our Plutonic relationships are often our deepest and most rewarding but in many instances complicated to the extreme.

Jon

[Old Guy in Astrology]

If Angelina Jolie was my sister growing up, I know that I would most surely had un-pure thoughts!  Luckily for me I had a sister that didn't engender any un-pure thoughts.

[Barbara Ybarra]

Good catch, Jon, on Angelina and her brother.  They shared the trauma of their abandonment by their father, and their need to replace the male archetype with whatever they could invent. 

Thanks for reminding us, OG, about the love affair of the century between Taylor and Burton.  I have lost my copy of
Ricki's book on quindeciles.   It was Taylor who was obsessed with Burton. 

In the book "Furious Love" we see this: " Taylor stated that 'after Richard, the men in my life were just there to hold the coat, to open the door. All the men after Richard were really just company.' 

I think this obsession with Burton also had something to do with her eventual need to have men around her who were gay (with no romantic demands on her).  She needed attention, but she wanted no more sexual drama that was not from Burton.

[robynne]

Oh,oh... putting my hand up in class! Could we please check out the synastry between Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton? Now they were fascinating. 

Oh, sorry Barbara and OGIA, just scrolled back and see you have already suggested that, so I'll just reinforce the motion! Ta!


At a quick glance of the two charts, their combined Sun-Moon conjunction in Scorpio stands out.

[Antonio]

An excellent article:

Passion Versus Obsession

Because passionate people are driven to create as a way to grow and achieve their potential, they are constantly seeking out others who share their passion in a quest for collaboration, friction and inspiration. […]

In contrast, obsessive people hide behind their objects of obsession.  The objects are what are important, not others or even themselves. […]

The key difference between passion and obsession is fundamentally social: passion helps build relationships and obsession inhibits them.”

http://edgeperspectives.typepad.com/edge_perspectives/2010/03/passion-versus-obsession.html

[pdw]

Interesting discussion, Old Guy and All.

I think many may reference this kind of Pluto obsession when they use the term love-hate relationship; to describe a passionate relationship that either one or both partners can’t live with, and can't live without.

Though not lovers, the attraction between musicians Lennon and McCartney and their dynamic Mars-Pluto synasty potential – for creativity, commitment, originality – generated much passion and obsession in their audience. This thread reminded me of their relationship and an article titled The Power of Two -

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/07/the-power-of-two/372289/